For Tuesday: Moore/Gibbons, Watchmen, Chs.4-7
Answer 2 of the 4 questions that follow:
1. The background comic, Tales of
the Black Freighter, is a tour de
force of parallel word + image storytelling. The question is, what role does it ultimately
play in the narrative? While the actual
narration seems to echo what occurs in the frames themselves, what other
themes/ideas seem to resonate from the background comic to the comic
proper?
2. The idea of time, keeping time, and in a sense, making time is a
central metaphor in Watchmen. As Dr. Manhattan reflects, “But it’s too
late, always has been, always will be too late.” If Dr. Manhattan is able to observe time as a
continuous event, why does he also seem powerless to prevent future events from
becoming “present”? Is this an example
of his callous, indifferent nature to the fate of man (thus making him a kind
of super villain)? Or are there other
ways to interpret his lack of interference with the wheel of time?
3. Chapter Six ends with the famous quote from Nietzsche, “Battle not
with monsters lest yet become a monster…and if you gaze into the abyss, the
abyss gazes also into you.” This
describes much of Rorschach’s career as a superhero, which consists of an uncompromising
mandate: “never despair. Never surrender.” How do we interpret the “blot” of Rorschach’s
soul as a crime fighter? Is he merely an
“Invisible Man” deluding himself that he’s on the side of right? Is he a madman as dangerous—indeed, even more
dangerous—than many of the criminals he prosecutes? Or does he suggest the inevitable fate of
every superhero, who necessarily removes the distinction between good and evil
in order to “save the world”?
4. In Chapter 7, pages 16-17, we get an entire page without dialogue or
narration at all: in this series of frames, we watch Nite Owl embrace a woman
who tears his “costume” off, revealing his true self—the costume of Nite
Owl. He does the same for her, revealing
Jupiter’s true form before a nuclear bomb destroys them both. How do we read a wordless comic differently
than one with various layers of written language? Why is this an important scene to tell
visually, and are there other scenes that dispense with language to make an important
point?
3. I’m not quite sure how readers should interpret Rorschach as a blot in and of himself. I go round and round feeling sorry for him because he is a victim of circumstance one moment, then agreeing that the world in which he is living is corrupt and vain and self-centered, then the next moment feeling that he should be locked up and kept confined for the remainder of the story and his natural life. The more I read, the more I find similarities between Rorschach and the Invisible Man; specifically in that the two original men (Kovacs and Griffin) are completely transformed and see themselves as new and enlightened beings superior to the rest of mankind. Both men seem to think they are most right in their thoughts and actions, which ultimately allows them to purge. Though Rorschach is an extreme case, I tend to think that he does represent the fate of all superheros. When a man is elevated to a level unnaturally by his own selfish pride and ambition, he cannot help but fall fast and hard toward the evils he has avoided for so long; this is when the line between good and evil blurs.
ReplyDelete4. I was honestly a little confused, especially because I read this question before actually making it to page 16 and 17 of the 7th chapter. After “reading” the pages in context though, I found that the “dream” was a little discombobulating simply because I had an eerie feeling that the Night Owl’s goggles were possessed or somehow watching him earlier in the chapter. However, this does tie in in a sense because the costume is ultimately his livelihood and what drives him. The goggles watching him can figuratively be perceived as his inner-self striving to be noticed, taken hold of, and implemented. Though there were no words for almost two pages, I found myself reflecting on previous encounters in the comic to fill in the missing pieces of the puzzle.
2. I think that Dr. Manhattan is just so intelligent that it keeps him from having emotions. I don’t think he cares about the fate of humans, even though he could change it. For example in the previous chapters when the Comedian shot the woman carrying his child, Dr. Manhattan just stood there and watched. He could have stopped it; the Comedian even pointed that out. I can somewhat understand his lack of interference with the wheel of time. In a lot of movies and books time is always portrayed as this dangerous thing that should not be meddled with. Nonetheless, I think I’m going to peg Dr. Manhattan as a super villain just because of how indifferent he is towards humans and their future.
ReplyDelete3. I’m not sure what to think of Rorschach. I can’t tell if he’s good or bad, but I’m thinking he straddles the fence somewhere in between. He does remind me a lot of the Invisible Man. Who they are originally, is pretty much the same person. Both Kovacs and Griffin are transformed into a superior race, or so they think. They both believe their actions are justified and they put themselves above everyone else. I’m interested to find out which way Rorschach sways; towards hero or villain.
2) It's not the fact that Dr. Manhattan is powerless, per say--- it's that he sees the human race for what they really are. He sees them as nothing more than a blimp in the fabric of time; they're nothing more than civilized, wild beasts. Dr. Manhattan, being omniscient, has come to the realization that no matter what he tries to do save the human race by altering the future, man always finds a way to prevail. This is an example of his callous nature. I think. Dr. Manhattan is a realist. He is no longer a human, thus he has the ability to look from the outside in and watch an entire species fight, bicker, and kill each other because they don't agree on the simple fundamentals of life.
ReplyDelete3) Rorschach's soul is constantly in a fight with his heart and mind, and they're battling the lines between good and evil. He, being the darkest hero in this comic, is a perfect blend between doing what is just, what is right, and acting on emotion. What the law states as being wrong, if Rorschach agrees, he will bring justice. If he psychologically disagrees, then his thought process may turn into pure anger and there's no limit to his retributive justice. If he emotionally feels this said action is right, he's more likely to make amends. At this point in the book, Rorschach believes he is fighting to attain the personal goal of discovering the comedian's killer while trying to save his fellow heroes before the same fate falls on them, while questioning the logic of how someone could even overpower the comedian. In my personal opinion, he borderlines sanity and being a madman. Justice is really the only thing that keeps him level headed. "You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain." That quote was said by Harvey Dent in The Dark Knight. This came to mind because doing what is right is not always just, and doing what is just is not always right. The law is set in place to protect the citizens, but what protects citizens from superheroes acting on their own forms of "justice?" What the superhero sees as just may be seen as unjust to the public eye, thus making he or she a villain.
Rocky Moore
ReplyDelete1. First and foremost I think it is pretty interesting that the man selling newspapers and propaganda the teen is reading this comic that seems to be playing at the same time of the actual scene that is currently going on within the frames. It plays as a direct correlation to that of what all the citizens and characters of the comic seem to be fretting about, world war 3, atomic bombs, mass hysteria. Everyone comes off as frightened about what is to come and no one is doing something about it. The comic shows one man burying bodies that seem to look zombie like as if something nuclear had gone horribly wrong and this one man seems to be the only person that can rearrange the events that have transpired and has gone through hell and back so for to do so.
2. At first I was confused about how he wouldn't just save the world if he knew it was doomed but then his backstory gave light to why he was the way he was. It wasn't his fault that he became this all powerful being and it wasn't his fault that his father made him do something that he wasn't interested in. He makes a comment about how everyone is determining his fate for him. I also remember him saying something about how he cant alter the future because he is in fact living in all realms of time at once. Imaging how sad and tragic that is, he not only lives in the present but is forced to live in the past and the future at the same time and cant live separately from one another by the true nature that he has become. He is one with the universe and instead of that being a productive thing for humanity it isn't even close and what makes things worse is that the people are trying to make him out to be some bad guy. I'm eager to see who is up to all this 'coincidental' stuff that seems to occur at every turn of the page. I don't see Mr. Manhattan as a indifferent and unsentimental man, I actually think he is a hero and will soon turn into what I think he's capable of but we shall see.
Cayla Odom,
ReplyDelete3. I think Rorschach's identity has become what people see him as. He is a character that like ink blots is up for interpretation in many ways. It just seems that his character has seen so much gore and violence that, that is what he sees and interprets in every situation. I don't think that he is an "invisible man" deluding himself. I think that he interprets the world by the heinous acts he has witnessed. This in turn translates into him embodying an ideal. He is dangerous and insane, but I think that he hasn't necessarily removed the distinction between good and evil. He interprets things in a harsh manner that is always violent. I think that he really is a hero in his own mind, which translates into reading that concept into his character.
4. In the wordless comics, I think that you have to bring in knowledge you have gained from previous pages as well as the concepts that are in the graphic novel to begin with. It means that the reader has to pay closer attention to the images and really make connections between the art work and the themes and story line of the graphic novel. I read this passage as Nite Owl and Jupiter revealing each other's true selves, which they never could escape from. However, in doing so they are ultimately destroying parts of themselves. So, I took that from their earlier fight scene during Dr. Manhattan's speech and from how adamant they were about trying to obtain normalcy in the beginning of the novel. I think it is important to tell visually, because it is more meaningful than to try to put that emotion and struggle into words. In fact, I think that graphic novels have the unique ability to show scenes and situations in a way that displays more emotion and is visually more disturbing and stimulating than just print on a page. This scene is unsettling, and I think words would add to much comfort for it to really sink in to the reader.
2. I don't think that Dr. Manhattan is by any means a "super villain", he's just really very intelligent and has seen everything that is happening happen a hundred times before. It seems to me that he has just decided that he can't make much of a difference anyway. You stop this terrible thing from happening, but while you are doing that something even worse occurs. He seems to have just given up hope on making a difference. It isn't that he doesn't care, it's that he doesn't believe he can do anything anyway. He might not be powerless, but he feels like he is.
ReplyDelete3. I think Rorschach is just a little unstable mentally. He's out there fighting crime, trying to make a difference, and yet the general public has turned him into a villain. He becomes almost manic in his attempt to do good, that he doesn't see how much harm he does, too. To go back to an earlier example in the first chapter, no true HERO would break a man's fingers while questioning him. He tries so hard, but it seems to me that he can't seem to find the line, or his limits. It definitely does not help that all of his friends were forced into retirement so he has been working alone for so long. It's just pushed him over the edge. I don't think he can fully tell when he is doing evil in the name of justice any more.
3. Rorschach is my favorite character and not just because he’s narrated a lot of the story to this point. He’s a gritty superhero. He has purposefully killed and isn’t afraid to break bones even for small amounts of information to get a lead. He is also totally crazy. Whenever he was talking to Dr. Long he tells him “Don’t be stupid. I wasn’t Rorschach then. Then I was just Kovacs pretending to be Rorschach.” (192) which kinda gave me the chills because he’d become so deeply involved with this masked identity; using his normal face as a mask to do his spying earlier in the story. He even refused to answer by anything but Rorschach at his hearing. I think he’s become disassociated from his human self and relates to Dr. Manhattan because I don’t think he connects with people anymore. The personal relationships we observe seem very superficial and in his case towards Nite Owl, contemptuous. For Rorschach instead of helping people it’s more like thwarting bad people because he seems to have such a pessimistic view of humanity and doesn’t hesitate to become violent. He informs the other prisoners when the one tries to attack him that they are locked up with him- not the other way around.
ReplyDelete2. I like Dr. Manhattan’s explanation of time and the fact that he can’t interfere because it makes it simple to understand. This also helps make the point that even though he has great powers, he is still not God so Dr. Wally Weaver was wrong in that respect. Even the great Dr. Manhattan has a limit to his abilities, don’t tell the Soviets. Like the assassination of JFK, he knows what is going to happen but is unable to prevent it, and at first this appears to only illustrate him losing touch with humanity. He can’t prevent or change events so he doesn’t care so he lets both Jenny and Laurie walk out of his life without a fight. Maybe he has to not care or it would drive even his overly logical mind crazy, but it develops to the point of indifference so he doesn’t care so he lets both Jenny and Laurie walk out of his life without a fight. The dude can do a lot of things but ultimately he is as helpless and just as human as the rest of us.
Great responses; as I said below, Rorschach is a great character because he's so complex and flawed. He's everything a superhero would be in real life, but also most things a supervillain would comprise as well. He IS Griffin to a very large degree, though without the mad scientist element. Yet he has a "solution" for most people and is willing to destroy anyone who doesn't fit into his very narrow definition of justice. His stance at the end of the book can be seen either--or alternatively--as heroic or sinister. He refuses to compromise and "lie" to the world, yet this is a compassionate lie that would save the world (or at least possibly make the sacrifice meaningful). He said he would rather have the world go to hell than to perpetuate a lie. And yet, his methods aren't so different from Veidt's...so why is he so opposed to this? Is this his ultimate crossing to the dark side?
Delete2. I think that Dr. Manhattan is powerless to prevent the future from becoming the present. I think that he just accept what should be and what will inevitably happen.Likewise, I do not think that he is at all indifferent to man, just respectful to time. If he were capable of preventing things the future, I don't see how bad things could happen to him. For example, he did not appear to know what was going to happen at the interview when he was accused of giving people cancer, And he does have emotions, because he was obviously furious at this. At the same time, while he is on Mars, we can see his emotions for Janey Slater. Or at least what they once were. Staring longingly at a picture and dwelling upon specific parts of the past is definitely an emotion.I would not call Dr. Manhattan a super hero, because that obviously is not his concern, but I most certainly would not call him a super villain.
ReplyDelete3. Rorscharch is by far by favorite character. He may not be completely one hundred percent good, but at least he isn't wishy washy like most of the other "crimefighters". He's smart too, even though he doesn't talk in complete sentences. The general public had turned all of the crime fighters into villains. Rorscharch is just the only one who refused to surrender his mask, naturally making him an enemy of a public who already feared what they did not know. How can a superhero be a superhero without becoming somewhat dangerous? Crime is dangerous. So shouldn't the people who fight crime, in order to win, also be somewhat dangerous? Rorschach, although his methods may be somewhat crude, gets the job done. He only does this, as far as I can tell, to questionable characters. So don't be a questionable character and he's a superhero! I really don't see a tie to the Invisible man. Whereas the Invisible Man thought solely of himself and creating a terror, Rorschach actually feels pity to his fellow humans and only inflicts terror on those who inflict terror.
Cora-lee Snow
Great responses here, and I agree with you--Rorschach is one of the most compelling characters, and a man who is shaped by the violence he grew up with and now mirrors in his daily life. However, like Griffin, he has a "plan" for his fellow men, and believes that many of them have to die. He holds most people in contempt, and I would argue that he does not feel much pity for anyone...he merely serves an ideal of justice, which he can never swerve from--and would kill to preserve (like Veidt?). There is one notable moment where he compromises in the book (we can discuss this), but in the end, he would rather die for his code than truly save the world, as Dan, Laurie, and even Manhattan realize is necessary.
DeleteI think Rorschach should be considered a super hero, but at the same time the guy seems pretty psychotic. The image where he is biting the bully's face was so nuts. These actions could be because of his rough past as a child. He has the perfect setup and "excuses" to be a super villain, but instead chooses to be a super hero. Still, his actions seem rather forceful when they really don't need to be. Is there a such thing as a super hero with super villain tendencies?
ReplyDelete4. It was incredibly difficult for me to understand what was going on. I skimmed the frames like I normally would and was left very confused, so I went back to the top of the page and observed the pictures differently. I looked at each image for probably 5 seconds determining what was going on. I am still confused as to why the nuclear image is posted twice. I'm guessing the nuclear scene is taking place inside his mind. I am finding it hard to remember the characters within the comic. I'm not quite sure why, but the only real difference between this work, and others I have read is the fact I am provided images instead of creating the image in my head. This might explain the confusion I have been experiencing when trying to remember who the characters are.
Rorschach may be a superhero in many ways, but he also fits most of the definitions for a supervillain (especially if he wasn't our narrator--if viewed from afar, he would always be the villain!). What redeems him is his dogged belief that he's saving some small part of humanity (for most of it is not worthy of saving, in his opinion), and some small touches of humanity that he shares with Dan. Yet as the work progresses, he shares an awful lot in common with Ozymandias, including the darker implications of the pirate metaphor.
DeleteAshley Bean
ReplyDelete2. No matter how powerful Jon, or Dr. Manhatten, is, he still has no power over time. I think he knows that is the one thing he can't control or effect. Time tortures him constantly, but he seems to embrace it rather than try to change it. Time could have driven him crazy by now, but instead he takes it as a part of himself. I don't think he is indifferent to man, his mind handles more information than ours do. I don't think that Jon is a supervillain either, I think he is just way misunderstood. And with good reason, he's so different from humans it would be impossible to understand him. Humans only try and use him, their more of the villains than he is.
3. I'm not sure yet if Rorschach is a super hero or not, but in my mind I was kind of rooting for him. He is one of my favorite characters. I think he may be on the superhero side, but has blurred the lines between good and evil. An important characteristic of most heroes is mercy, something he has lost. Can he be a hero without it? I wouldn't put him as a villain either though. He's an odd character that doesn't really fit in to either category. He knows he isn't like the other masked heroes. I wouldn't necessarily compare him to the Invisible Man either, he was just plain evil. Griffin was on a thoughtless rampage controlled by the id. While Rorschach seems to embody some ideals of the id, he controls it a lot better.
Great points...we like Rorschach because he's not a bullshitter: he simply avenges the good and punishes the evil. He refuses to compromise. We like that in a hero, though we don't realize that someone who refuses to compromise cannot be "good." There will always be a conflict of interest here, since true goodness requires humanity and compassion, and Rorschach refuses to have either, as seen by his super left-wing politics. He has a jaded view of humanity and like Veidt, thinks that most people have to be sacrificed (he even says, "you have to break a few eggs..." Like the pirate, he is so committed to his mission that he no longer cares how he accomplishes it, or what he becomes. At the end, we can argue that he has seen too much and wants to die--and perhaps commits suicide by refusing to play along with the game he knows must be played along with. He's a complex and fascinating character...but is her a hero?
DeleteShelby Pletcher
ReplyDelete2) I don't believe Dr. Manhatten is a supervillian. Through out chapter 4, I came to really understand him and like him. I think what makes Dr. Manhatten such an interesting, viable character to the Watchmen is the fact that he's not this idealistic superhero who is out to change the world. He knows he can't change the world so he doesn't even try. I love how absolutely human he is. He isn't a god and he doesn't try to be. He is simply a victim to circumstances and is now doing his best to make the most of them. He's not perfect, and he can sometimes come across as evil. But I think he's ultimately just a struggling man trying to make ends meet with what he's got.
3) Much like Dr. Manhatten, I think Rorschach is another victim of circumstances. However, I do think he has lost a sense of empathy that makes him much more prone to hatred, violence, and evil. I think he is simply blinded by his own contempt for the world. While we don't always know people who have done the things Rorschach has done, I think we all know somebody who had a rough past that basically turned them into a narcissistic, arrogant, hateful jerk. Most of us don't hate these people once we come to understand what made them the way they are. We come to have mercy upon them, despite their total lack of mercy for us. I'd definitely place Rorschach in this category. Not a superhero, but not quite a supervillian either. Just simply a man who needs some intense therapy and an even great helping of hope.
Great points...indeed, you could look at Dr. Manhattan as the superhero closest to Superman in his refusal to play the villain role. He never hatches a plan to save humanity or is willing to manipulate or hurt anyone to achieve his ends, even fleeing to Mars to remove himself from the equation. His lack of empathy is not evil or callous, but truly comes from his alien nature: he simply is no longer human, so he can't be expected to be/think like us. Yet he still cares, and is the only hero able to take the biggest step back and see the world. Even killing Rorschach at the end could be seen as an act of kindness, since Rorschach could never live in Veidt's "utopian" world.
ReplyDelete