For Thursday: Tolkein, The Hobbit, Chs. 5-7
As
always answer 2 of the following…
1. In Beowulf, a work which Tolkein not only
translated but was highly influenced by, the phrase “wyrd” is often used, which
translates to fate or chance. In one
significant passage, Beowulf claims, “Wyrd saves oft/the man undoomed if he
undaunted be” (lines 572-573). How does
fate (or luck?) seem to function similarly in The
Hobbit? Does the narrator seem to
believe in such a concept, and at times does it serve Bilbo when he proves
worthy of it?
2. The Hobbit is full of poetry and song,
from the dwarfs’ songs (which resemble Beowulf)
to the goblins’ ferocious chants to Gollum and Bilbo’s riddles. Why does the
narrator (who has a distinct personality) include these unnecessary embellishments
in the story? After all, we don’t really
need them to understand the plot, and many people just skim over them entirely. Why might he want us to hear the poetry and
puzzle over the riddles ourselves?
3. Tolkein
purposely went back and revised The Hobbit
to bring it in line with his evolving mythology and the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Though we can read The Hobbit as a stand-alone work, where do we see foreshadowings
and links to the later works in this one?
How, for example, do we know the ring isn’t just a magic trinket but a
true “ring of power”?
4. How does Bilbo live up to his name and pedigree in these chapters and become, in a small way, a hero of legend? What causes him to do this? Is it an accident, like the way Gandalf tricked him into undertaking the Quest, or is it a conscious decision of Bilbo’s? Discuss a scene where you see him renounce his identity as a "burgher" and become a "burglar."
4. How does Bilbo live up to his name and pedigree in these chapters and become, in a small way, a hero of legend? What causes him to do this? Is it an accident, like the way Gandalf tricked him into undertaking the Quest, or is it a conscious decision of Bilbo’s? Discuss a scene where you see him renounce his identity as a "burgher" and become a "burglar."
1. The narrator is constantly stating how lucky Bilbo is. When he got the ring and was escaping from the goblins, the narrator commented on how luck was on the hobbit's side. Later, and I may be ahead of the class here, I'm not sure, with the barrel chapter, it is mentioned how lucky Bilbo was that he was able to slip on top of one without the elves noticing. Essentially, every time Bilbo does something right, the narrator attributes it to luck instead of skill, or cleverness, or anything that actually has to do with Bilbo. I don't, however, believe that it ever mentions fate. No instances come to mind, at least.
ReplyDelete2. With the songs, I think that the narrator wants to engross us as fully as possible into this world. He often comments, since he is a character in this himself, on how beautiful they are and he wishes he could do them justice. By adding them to the story, we can sort of enjoy them, too. I actually enjoy reading every word and comparing the music of all the different races. It's fascinating how different they are. Now the riddles, I believe, were added just for fun. The first time I read this novel, I tried to answer all of the riddles myself before I would read the answers. (And sadly, were I in Bilbo's place, Gollum would have eaten me). I view it as kind of a challenge, could I outsmart Gollum in a game of riddles? I honestly don't know if that was Tolkien's, or even the narrator's objective, but that's the way I took it. It was a challenge to see if we were as smart as Bilbo, to see if we could have survived in Gollum's lake.
Rocky Moore
ReplyDelete3. I can totally see how this work can be valued if it stood alone without the Lord of the Rings that followed, I mean even the way the story is written compared to the ones that followed is much different. It is much easier to read and comprehend regarding The Hobbit, compared to the rest of the Lord of the Rings series. Other than that I thought that Tolkein gave such a in depth and rich history of the land they are in including the multitude of characters he wrote about, to allude to in later works. For example, when I think of Gandalf, I think of the other stories more than I do in The Hobbit. The same can be said for a majority of the other characters, including elves, orcs, Thorin and the Dwarves, Baggins and not Bilbo but Frodo and even Gollumn. Seeing their names and reading about them in this first book foreshadows their expansion in the other stories. Even if you had not read the Lord of the Rings or have even seen the movies, the characters and backdrop of the history Tolkein provides allows for our imagination to run wild about where the story could be taken next. Ultimately the golden ring of immense power stated by Tolkein rises our curiousness about what exactly the ring is, how it makes someone invisible, and even where it came from.
4. I definitely think Bilbo proves himself when he challenges Gollumn, finds the ring, escapes Gollumn and the goblins and ultimately when he catches up to the rest of the party all by himself. He distinguishes what he has to offer, he is cunning and seems to slip out of misfortunate events. I mean you could say he got lucky and that he would not have made it out of the goblins cave and you could also say it was a coincidence that Gandalf had actually 'tricked' Bilbo into going, but if you did that then I think you would be undermining or ignoring the idea or word "wryd" that translates to chance or fate. I think this whole ''wryd'' thing seems to be on this Hero's side.
Ashley Bean
ReplyDelete2. What's an adventure without the songs? All good adventures get put into songs one day, and since this is an adventure novel, I think that there should be some songs involved! Songs are this era's version of a history text book. You see the same thing in Game of Thrones, they have several songs in the show and the books, though Martin may not write out all of the words, but they tell a story like in "The Rains of Castamere." Tolkien is utilizing the songs to tell stories of the past in his world. With the riddles, I wonder if they were a part of the original edition? I kind of think that the riddles are added in to extend the scene and emphasize its importance to the trilogy to come. You get a little bit of back story, or character, of Gollum from this scene that really isn't necessary. Gollum says when he realizes his defeat, "Thief, thief, thief! Baggins! We hates it, we hates it, we hates it for ever!" (82). This line, for me, ties directly to the Fellowship, because Gollum only remembers the word Baggins and Shire.
3. Again, I will mention the scene with Gollum. I imagine that in the 1st edition, Gollum's character probably wasn't as insane? That is a side effect of the ring, though he may have made that fit Gollum's character instead of the other way around. Gollum gets awfully upset about losing a ring that he rarely even uses besides to catch some extra goblins. It says, "He wanted it because it was a ring of power.." (76). Call me crazy, but an invisible ring is more magic than power on its own. Also, the rings seems to act on its own. A plain ring of invisibility probably wouldn't do those things.
2. Songs embellish everything! We mostly see it in movies, but it can do the same in books. I think the author is wanting us to be completely engulfed in this world. It literally reminds me of Snow White's 7 dwarfs singing "Hi-Ho! Hi-Ho! It's off to work we go!" Poems and songs basically lighten the mood, and make everything look pretty (even if it's not). Many movies use this same technique. Movies that really aren't musicals will have a random character start singing something if shit just got real, even if it's just a line from a song and not the entire thing.
ReplyDelete3. You see a kind of foreshadowing because they start a quest that Gandalf says, "Only a hobbit can complete." During this quest, you see these different nations of men, dwarfs, and elves all at war with each other join together to fight the Orcs. At the end of the novel, you see the quest come full circle with Bilbo Baggins in possession the ring. The differing nations have combined into one fighting force, and you have Gandalf ready to lead this unique band of heroes. Naturally, the next step in their journey is to destroy the powerful ring.
1. I believe fate or luck works quite well within The Hobbit. For instance, like we stated last class, we don't know the real reason as to why Bilbo decides to actually join in the adventure. Of course we can assume millions of possibilities, but could it be true that it was just a matter of fate? By Bilbo being at the right place, at the right time, and with the proper name, it leads me to lean more towards fate or luck rather than something that can be explained.
ReplyDelete2. For centuries, songs have been used for self expression and communication. This gives us an insight to the characters singing them. If I had it my way, every book would include a song or two. Like Amanda said above "Songs embellish everything." It builds up the mood as to where the book is taking place. Sometimes when reading, I completely forget the setting or time period, and place it in the current time. By having a song, poem, or something with self expression of the detriments or experiences taking place within the society, it is almost like a self-check to reinstate where and when the story is unfolding.
1. In the early parts of Chapter V, it becomes clear that the narrator seems to believe in wyrd/fate/chance because he reveals to readers that Bilbo takes actions which he does not fully realize the implications of at the time. This is in turn foreshadowing about the importance of the ring and the events to come as Bilbo matures into the burglar the crew is so desperately seeking. As Chapter V progresses, it becomes clear that fate has taken him for a bit of an unexpected adventure and possible impending death match with Gollum, but Bilbo is well-equipped and doesn’t even know it. Eventually, Bilbo realizes this and emerges with a newfound confidence.
ReplyDelete2. The inclusion of these dialogue elements helps to place readers within the story. The riddles, especially, help to build suspense and get readers’ minds racing with anticipation and the need for quick thinking that Bilbo and Gollum encountered. While reading the riddle about the fish, the narrator points out that it is probably easy for readers to figure out because they are in the comfort of a convenient world in which doom does not lurk closely waiting to strike; however, I think this made me think slower, and my blood pressure began to rise as I knew both Bilbo and I only had a few seconds to come up with the right answer. Including such elements heightens suspense and brings readers into the story giving them a type of ownership that is unique to reading, and even unique to the fantasy genre.
Cayla Odom
ReplyDelete2. I actually listened to part of these chapters as an audio book, so the narrator actually sang the songs and embellished the riddles as he read. I think that this is part of the anachronism of the piece. In hearing these songs and poetry, the reader is experiencing part of this oral tradition that is very reminiscent of Beowulf. The songs themselves are telling stories and giving us more information than what is happening in the main narrative. So, I think that this has a dual purpose. It definitely enhances this reading experience by adding culture and alluding to this oral tradition. Which, really sets this tale in an older time period than the one in which it was written. Yet, it also provides information from the characters own culture point-of-view, which seems like a different voice than the narrators.
3. I haven't read the Lord of the Rings trilogy, and I don't think that I have caught all of the foreshadowing in The Hobbit just yet. However, I can see how Tolkien is setting up the events of this story to lead into The Fellowship of the Ring. It is explicitly stated that the ring is a ring of power and it references its maker. Also, the dynamic between Bilbo and Gollum does seem to explain maybe a part of Gollum and Frodo's relationship in the Fellowship of the Rings. However, I think I would have more concrete ideas regarding this point if I had read the books. It does set up a backstory for Gollum, and it does seem to allude to this idea that the power of the ring can drive you mad. In fact, I feel like this story is in the process of setting up the questions that need to be answered in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
3. In the copy of The Hobbit that I have there is a note in the pages before the story starts which is I guess from the author and part of it says “More important is the matter of Chapter Five [of what has been revised]. There the true story of the ending of the Riddle Game, as it was eventually revealed (under pressure) by Bilbo to Gandalf, is now given according to the Red Book, in place of the version Bilbo first gave to his friends, and actually set down in his diary” which I thought was funny because Tolkien put the revision of the book and not just Bilbo’s tale off on Bilbo as if he were a real person and made a mini story of it. It’s not as obvious here, but Gollum calls the ring ‘precious’ or ‘my precious,’ and Bilbo in The Lord of the Rings series picks up this same thread of endearment towards it. Also, the narrator even succumbs to its power by calling it “very beautiful” and “very wonderful.” Then when Bilbo makes it out of the mountains and into the company of dwarves, they wonder how he has done it, and he tells his tale. Gandalf however “gave Bilbo a queer look from under his bushy eyebrows” (95) after telling the others that Bilbo “has more about him than you guess” (94). Because Gandalf is awesome and knows BS when he hears it. I couldn’t find it, but there’s another moment when he tells Bilbo after finding out about the ring that nothing is ever what it seems or something like that.
ReplyDelete4. I think Bilbo becoming the burglar is a gradual process that is first hinted at with their adventure with the mountain trolls when he doesn’t want to go back to the group empty handed. But I think that his encounter with Gollum and finding the magic ring gives him a false sense of confidence because he escapes from Gollum in the first place then he sneaks past Balin who’s standing guard over their camp. Yet knowing how surprised they’ll be at his reappearance, he declares upon appearing “And here’s the burglar!” (93), and because he doesn’t tell them about the ring, they give him kudos for his abilities which builds his confidence even more. But then he owns this confidence and really becomes a part of the company on their quest.
2. I think that th3 songs sort of serve as a way to give the different types of species different types of personality traits. The dwarvescdo not sing about the same things that the elves do and the elvea certainly don't sing aboutnthe same things that the goblins do. As avreader, although I cannot actually hear music to go with the lyrics, I readcit as if I do. I tyink that these songs tell us more about the characters than only dialogue could. For example, the goblins sing about hurting the dwarves and how they want to hurt them. I think that gives the reader more of a feel of just how much the goblins dislikecthe dwarves. It's a lot more effective than having one say, "I hate you."
ReplyDelete3. I think that all the different types of characters alone is a type of foreshadowing. There is too much there for there to not be more. It provides too much information and detail that could potentially and does lead to so much more. Also, the ring. Gollum finds yhe ring so very important and talks about its power. How could that possibly be the end of a story with that ring still in existence.? It privides a whole new story in itself.
Cora-lee Snow
1. The songs and riddles throughout these chapters really captured my attention. I can see how a young reader might view them as unimportant and skim over them. But I thought they helped to tell more about the characters, especially the songs. It’s fun to imagine what the dwarves sound like singing. An it’s even more fun to try and solve the riddles before reading on to the answer.
ReplyDelete3. One moment I can remember specifically thinking that this ring is sketchy is when Bilbo doesn’t tell the others about it. That seems out of character for him, and I think it foreshadows to the power the ring has over its wearer. I also wondered about the significance of the ring when we meet Gollum. Bilbo tricked him with his riddles. To me, Bilbo is an honest character, I realize his life was on the line, but I was surprised to see him being sneaky like that.